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Carmelo<br>
<br>
Speaking of "conflating" I just stuck with the one issue, "trivial"
as that may be. <br>
<br>
It's a rather huge rabbit hole to go down when all the other issues
you mention get placed into that pot. And therein lies the problem
with this whole discussion on Tweeters, conflation.<br>
<br>
Conflation is a good way to hijack a discussion.<br>
<br>
I've said my 2 bits so on that note I'll leave the listerv to settle
back down to its normal self.<br>
<br>
Roger<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2024-06-27 9:00 a.m., Carmelo
Quetell wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:PH0P220MB057074F68F1CD7B00C2285AADCD72@PH0P220MB0570.NAMP220.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Roger</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Therein lies the problem. You're asking to not
throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to the
AOS name changes (change no names, only change some names,
etc.), yet you want to conflate and dismiss every effort to
make birding more just, inclusive, and/or equitable as "cancel
culture" or "woke nonsense". One set of rules for what you
want, a different set of rules for what you don't want,
nothing changes, and you get to stay in your comfort zone. <span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">The world is changing. New generations are moving
into adulthood. Do I think that these name changes are going
to end racism? Hell no. Do I think that these name changes, in
and of themselves, are the missing piece in getting more
people to start birding? No. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">However, I know there are always people watching
from a safe distance. In this case, young and nonwhite people
who love birds and the outdoors, who want to join communities
of like-minded people. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">When they see this level of resistance,
ignorance, and vitriol, especially for something so trivial,
they're not going to feel like it's safe enough to join the
ranks. Nobody wants to be integrated into a burning building. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">The birds need more human allies NOW. If the
birding elders don't do their part to call in the youth and
prepare the younger adults for birding elder hood, the village
will die off. Especially with all this tech that is keeping
people from connecting with the real world. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Is that what you want? Is it worth digging in
your heels just so you don't have to put a few new wrinkles in
your brain?</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">-Carmelo</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Roger Craik
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:r_craik@shaw.ca"><r_craik@shaw.ca></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 27, 2024 11:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carmelo Quetell <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:melocq22@msn.com"><melocq22@msn.com></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tweeters@u.washington.edu">tweeters@u.washington.edu</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tweeters@u.washington.edu"><tweeters@u.washington.edu></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tweeters] Inclusion in Birding
<div> </div>
</font></div>
Carmelo<span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
<br>
Birding should be apolitical and not subject to the
whims of what appears to be a cancel culture movement
within the AOS. Messing with either the nomenclature or
taxonomy, unless you are going to subdivide a species,
makes it appear that this is the case. If it walks like
a duck...<br>
</span></span></span><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
FWIW I have been subscribed to Tweeters for about 25
years as an active participant or a lurker. There are
occasional blowups on the listserv that can occur over
controversial issues and unless things degenerate into
ad hominem attacks they usually blow over.<br>
<br>
</span></span></span><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I
guess if one can't agree to disagree then leaving is the
only option. Maybe "</span></span></span>"shut up and
bird"" really is the way to go.<br>
<span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
Roger</span></span></span><br>
<span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
<br>
</span></span></span><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2024-06-27 5:23 a.m., Carmelo
Quetell wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Roger,</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">I'm not 100% sure what your intention was
when you sent this response to <span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Aadu's
message. However, it is an operant example of being
tone deaf. At this point, several people on this
listserv who oppose the AOS name changes have stated
they don't understand why it's important (because
they're only looking at it through the lens of their
own personal experience). <span></span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Despite
it not <span>being <span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Aadu's
responsibility to explain it for (or justify it
to) others, they have taken the time to do so,
along with naming the impact it has had on them.
Replying in this way is not helpful. Regardless of
what your intention was when you clicked send, it
reads as dismissive of <span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Aadu's
message, while at the <span>same time driving
their point home even more. </span></span><span></span></span></span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span><br>
</span></span></span></span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span>Carmelo</span></span></span></span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span
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</span></span></span></div>
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</span></span></span></div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Tweeters
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tweeters-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<tweeters-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu></a> on behalf of
Roger Craik via Tweeters
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tweeters@u.washington.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true"><tweeters@u.washington.edu></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 27, 2024 2:22 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:tweeters@u.washington.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">
tweeters@u.washington.edu</a> <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tweeters@u.washington.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<tweeters@u.washington.edu></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tweeters] Inclusion in Birding
<div> </div>
</font></div>
All<br>
<br>
To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln<br>
<br>
You can please all the people some of the time, and some
of the people all the time, but you cannot please all
the people all the time.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container"
class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message">
Sounds to me like there's going to be a lot of
displeased people along with a ton of people who don't
really care for what ever reason. So just how many
people are going to be really pleased by this exercise
in inclusivity and respectfulness? At least until they
have to run out and buy new birding books.<br>
<div id="" class="" dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div class="" dir="ltr"><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Roger
Craik<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div id="" class="" dir="ltr"><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Maple
Ridge BC</span><br>
</div>
<div id="" class="" dir="ltr"><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
</span></div>
<div id="" class="" dir="ltr"><span
style="text-decoration: none; display: inline !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2024-06-26 2:46 p.m.,
Aadu Prakash via Tweeters wrote:</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix" dir="ltr"><span
style="font-size:inherit"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><span
style="font-size:inherit">Hi Tweeters community,</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Longtime
lurker, but felt the need to write in. I'm a 31 y.o
Indian American who has been birding for 25 years.
Throughout my life, I've met many wonderful people who
have welcomed me into the world of
birding/ornithology. But on the flipside, I have often
felt like the odd one out in many of the communities I
participated in.</div>
<div dir="ltr"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">It's
disappointing that the discourse around changing
eponymous bird names is being shut down. Almost like
we're being told to "shut up and bird". I
applaud folks like Steve and Carmelo who bring up
reasons why this is an important initiative, and how
it can lead to more diversity and inclusion in the
birding world.</div>
<div dir="ltr"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Many
underrepresented groups are faced with the task of
"terraforming" the communities they engage with. They
have to put in serious work to make these communities
"habitable" for them. But through censorship and lack
of support from leadership, they often burnout and
disappear into the background (or leave the group
altogether). </div>
<div dir="ltr"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">From
Carmelo's Op-Ed:</div>
<div dir="ltr"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="text-decoration: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
"Human beings at the AOS have committed their time,
money, and resources toward this endeavor for the last
several years. They’ve clearly stated an intention to
actively involve the public in the process of
selecting new bird names, as well as including a
diverse representation of individuals with expertise
in the social sciences, communications, ornithology,
and taxonomy." </blockquote>
<div dir="ltr"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> These
people are actively trying to "terraform" our birding
community in a way that is inclusive and respectful to
us all. They should be supported, not shot down.
Otherwise things will largely stay the same.</div>
<div dir="ltr"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I
plan on unsubscribing from Tweeters and hope that the
work is put into making this a more inclusive
community that can attract AND retain folks from
underrepresented communities.</div>
<div dir="ltr"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Best,</div>
<div style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Aadithya
(Aadu) Prakash</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Roger Craik <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Roger Craik <br>
</div>
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