<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763">Dennis, </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763">Brilliant examples regarding the genus names! There are some gems there. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763">Sasin is Nuu-chah-nulth (Nootka) for hummingbird. When Allen's and Rufous got split, sasin went to California with Allen's and Rufous got rufus. Go figure. Indigenous words were often subject to mix up, though none so glaring as Inca Dove for a bird that largely lives in Mexico! Pipixcan (for Franklin's Gull) is Nahuatl (Aztec) for "gull." That's a bit of a stretch for that species' range, though Franklin is hardly better - he was an Arctic explorer. I'm still waiting for a pub trivia night about bird names! </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763">I was one of the members of the Ad Hoc Committee on English Bird Names that made the recommendations to the AOS Council. I encourage people to look at our report to them, especially pages 11-19. It's at <a href="https://americanornithology.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/1-AOS-EBNC_recommendations_23_10_19.pdf">https://americanornithology.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/1-AOS-EBNC_recommendations_23_10_19.pdf</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763">I don't know their timeline, but the basic plan is to have a new committee oversee a process that will involve the public in suggesting new names. I've seen some wonderful creative suggestions online, and I hope this becomes an opportunity for more people to learn about birds. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763">good birding, </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:#073763"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 4:39 PM Dennis Paulson <<a href="mailto:dennispaulson@comcast.net">dennispaulson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">Steve, that’s an erudite and entertaining blog post and should be read by all interested birders. I do have one bone to pick with you, though. By ignoring the genera, you didn’t really translate the scientific names.<div><i><br></i></div><div><i>Chaetura vauxi</i> is not Vaux’s Swift, it’s Vaux’s Spinetail. <i>Aechmophorus clarkii</i> is not Clark’s Grebe, it’s Clark’s Swordbearer. <i>Polysticta stelleri</i> is actually Steller’s Manyspot. <i>Bucephala islandica</i> is Iceland Bullhead, <i>Phalaropus tricolor</i> is Tricolored Cootfoot, and the other two phalaropes are Lobed Cootfoot and Cootlike Cootfoot. <i>Rhodostethia rosea</i> is Rosy Redbreast. Members of the genus <i>Selasphorus</i> are brightness-bearers, although I don’t know what <i>sasin</i>, the species name of Allen’s, means. I could go on and on, but hopefully you see my point.<div><br></div><div>The determination to change so many names is widespread in the North American birding community, but I wonder if anyone has thought about all the other birds in the world with honorific names, not to mention all the other plants and animals. There are thousands of them. Goodbye Douglas-fir. Goodbye Engelmann Spruce. Goodbye Brown-eyed Susan and Sweet William?</div><div><br></div><div>Dennis Paulson</div><div>Seattle<br><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Nov 22, 2023, at 3:24 PM, Steve Hampton <<a href="mailto:stevechampton@gmail.com" target="_blank">stevechampton@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(7,55,99)">I agree that scientific names can present an obstacle for the general public, especially for children and for communication of conservation issues. I also agree they can tell us a lot about a species. About a third of the birds with eponyms have descriptive latin names (usually because their honorific name was given to them later, not by the first describer). For example, Wilson's Warbler was given the scientific name pusilla (tiny). Wilson himself called it the Black-capped Green Flycatcher. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(7,55,99)">A couple years ago, in a hypothetical exercise, I made a list of about 80 common North American species with honorific names, and looked at what their scientific name means, and listed some of their historical names and what their names mean in other languages, thus providing a list of alternative names for each of them. That list is here: </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br><u><a href="https://thecottonwoodpost.net/2022/05/14/the-fun-part-new-bird-names/" target="_blank">The fun part: New bird names</a></u></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><a href="https://thecottonwoodpost.net/2022/05/14/the-fun-part-new-bird-names/" target="_blank">https://thecottonwoodpost.net/2022/05/14/the-fun-part-new-bird-names/</a><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(7,55,99)">good birding, </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 1:49 PM Dennis Paulson <<a href="mailto:dennispaulson@comcast.net" target="_blank">dennispaulson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Chris, I can’t disagree with you strongly about any of this, except perhaps about one point. I don’t think <i>Cyanocitta stelleri </i>is gibberish at all, or at least no more than “blue jay” would be gibberish to someone in Brazil or China. In fact, it is just as meaningful as any name given to anything and actually tells us quite a bit. It contains ‘cyano, Greek for dark blue, and ‘citta,’ Greek for a chattering bird (also used for jays), and thus it means “Steller’s blue jay.”<div><br></div><div>Someone giving common names to the species of <i>Cyanocitta</i> right now might have come up with Eastern Blue Jay and Steller’s Blue Jay for our two common North American species, in accord with a lot of current attempts to show relationships by vernacular names. That’s what we did with dragonfly names as much as possible. ‘Cristata’ means crested, by the way, so I suppose the eastern one could have been called Crested Blue Jay, but that wouldn’t differentiate it from Steller’s.</div><div><br></div><div>And I think at least some kids would think it was the greatest fun to learn scientific names, if they were encouraged to do so. I did it long ago just because I wanted to know what all those Latin and Greek names meant. I never studied the Classics in college, but I have learned so much in my love of scientific names.</div><div><br></div><div>And when those 142 eponyms are replaced by something else, I hope the people doing so will know exactly what the scientific names of every one of those species mean, as that can be very helpful when coining a common names.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, what a shame to relegate Steller to the trash heap, so no birder in the future is ever prompted to try to learn just who that person was and what he did—for better or worse.</div><div><br></div><div>Dennis Paulson</div><div>Seattle<br><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Nov 22, 2023, at 12:52 PM, J Christian Kessler <<a href="mailto:1northraven@gmail.com" target="_blank">1northraven@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif"><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Ludlow Griscom’s article is interesting, and makes some good
points, but it essentially boils down to two thoughts:<span></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Perfection is impossible as we don’t – and probably will never - know a comprehensive and accurate taxonomy of birds. <span> </span>Both scientific understanding and common
naming are so muddled as to be beyond repair.<span></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Birders can learn Linnean binomials as well as they can
learn English “common names.”<span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span> </span></p><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As to the first, I totally agree.<span> </span>One thing biology has proven over the past
century is that a “correct” taxonomy of Aves – or any class – is a constantly
shifting target.<span> </span>Any class is a tree
with many tangles, or worse.<span> </span>Olympic
Gull is but one example.<span> </span>Even a species
like Chat is in some respects anomalous.<span>
</span>“Best current judgement” is a useful criterion – “perfect” is not.<span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span> </span></p><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As to whether birders can or should learn and use Linnean
binomials, common English language names are for more than avocationally intense
birders.<span> </span>A much wider audience is
involved here.<span> </span>For example, I frequently
hear “backyard birders” and others refer to our local jay as a “blue jay”
rather than Steller’s Jay.<span> </span>They never
heard of Georg Steller, don’t care, and just know the jay had a blue body.<span> </span>But Black-headed Jay would be a name they are
more likely to remember and use.<span> </span>Cyanocitta
stelleri is gibberish and tells them nothing.<span>
</span>And it doesn’t tell us serious birders much either – it’s just the same name
with more syllables for "jay".<span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span> </span></p><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Many people, including most birders, I suspect, are always
going to use English language names for birds. Many of us started as kids
finding birds interesting; “Mom, I saw a jay” versus “Mom, I saw a Cyanocitta.”<span> </span><span> </span>We can
make common bird names more friendly, and sometimes more enlightening, while
understanding that “always getting it right” is aspirational.<span> <br></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><br></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Chris Kessler,</span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Seattle<br></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span></span></p>
</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 2:38 PM Jon. Anderson and Marty Chaney <<a href="mailto:festuca@comcast.net" target="_blank">festuca@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">
<span style="font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt">Bob Righter from Denver posted this on the Colorado birding chat group. I thought it might be an interesting read for those of us who are 'anxiously' awaiting action from the AOS on revising the Common Names of birds that are named after People.</span>
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<span style="font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt">"From chatter on the internet emerges an interesting article by Ludlow Griscom written in 1947 “Common Sense in Common names.” Griscom, was a power house in the early 1900s and greatly influenced Roger Tory Peterson. The full article can be accessed through Google. I’ve taken the liberty of just featuring the last paragraph which I thought was the most poignant to our conversation on Bird Names:</span>
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<span style="font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt"><br>"NO “simple and logical principles” for vernacular nomenclature can be formulated. There are far too many birds; their variations, relationships, and ranges are not simple or logical. Their habits and habitats change from season to season, from one section of the continent to another, from century to century. Which season, which habitat, which section of the country is to be the basis for the “appropriate or associative” name?"</span>
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<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">
<span style="font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt">The article can be read at <a href="https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wilson/v059n03/p0131-p0138.pdf" target="_blank">https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wilson/v059n03/p0131-p0138.pdf</a></span>
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<span style="font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt">Enjoy!</span>
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<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">
<span style="font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt"> - Jon. Anderson</span>
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<span style="font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt"> Olympia</span>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><span>"moderation in everything, including moderation"<br>Rustin Thompson<br></span></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><font size="4" color="#073763"><span></span>Steve Hampton<span></span></font></div><div>Port Townsend, WA (<span style="font-family:verdana,arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">qatáy</span>)</div></div><br><div><font color="#073763"><i><br></i></font></div></div></div>
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