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<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">On the RT you linked I see
lighter and darker bands on the exposed parts of the feathers of the back. </p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">On the Fir Island bird I see
quite disheveled feathers, showing normally hidden parts of the back
feathers. I see lots of very light/white bands on those parts of feathers
that look like they'd normally (when not disheveled) be hidden by other
feathers. So I'm not able to discern a back pattern on it that seems
representative of it's non-disheveled appearance. I think it could have the
Red-tailed vee pattern, or normal rang variation of that vee, if its
feathers were in order.</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">The image you linked to the
"Red Shouldered Hawk" shows the yellow cere that seems to be a necessary
trait of Red-shouldered Hawks. But if I'd seen it from only that
perpective, with its lack of rufous on its shoulders, lack of rufous belly
markings, that light pattern on its back, that pattern on its tail
feathers, that body shape, and in Canada where Red-shouldered Hawks are
seldom found, I'd have identified it as a Red-tailed Hawk, and I think
that's what it is. I realize it's extremely presumptuous of me to think it
is misidentified, given that photo is published in Smithsonian Magazine and
labeled as "Red Shouldered Hawk". It not being labeled as
"Red-shouldered Hawk" helps me doubt the vetting done. As always, I'm
calling it as I see it, and I realize I could be wrong in my perception and
in what field marks matter.</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">I see the lack of a yellow cere
on the Fir Island Bird. That seems to me to preclude it being a
Red-shouldered Hawk. I think the Fir Island bird looks like a Red-tailed
Hawk.</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">You've got me hoping I can get
good photos of juvenile disheveled RTHA & RSHA backs.</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Kevin Lucas<br>
Yakima County, WA</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Sent with AquaMail for Android<br>
<a href="http://www.aqua-mail.com">http://www.aqua-mail.com</a></p>
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<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
March 12, 2022 8:51:55 PM Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10@gmail.com>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
<div class="">I think these two photos are illustrative. (Not
surprisingly perhaps, there aren’t many photos on-line showing only the
backs of immature buteos.). </div><div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="" style="text-decoration: underline; -webkit-font-kerning: none;"><a
href="https://photocontest.smithsonianmag.com/photocontest/detail/an-immature-red-shouldered-hawk/"
class="">https://photocontest.smithsonianmag.com/photocontest/detail/an-immature-red-shouldered-hawk/</a></span></div><div
class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br
class=""></div><div class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br
class=""></div><div class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 13px;"><span
class="" style="-webkit-font-kerning: none;"></span><br class=""></div><div
class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="" style="-webkit-font-kerning: none;"><a
href="https://www.featheredphotography.com/blog/2015/07/14/juvenile-red-tailed-hawk-in-flight-and-perched/"
class="">https://www.featheredphotography.com/blog/2015/07/14/juvenile-red-tailed-hawk-in-flight-and-perched/</a></span></div></div><div
class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br
class=""></div><div class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br
class=""></div><div class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Fir
Island bird: <a href="https://flic.kr/p/2n82Wbg"
class="">https://flic.kr/p/2n82Wbg</a></div><div class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br
class=""></div><div class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br
class=""></div><div class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">On
the Fir Island bird, the individual feathers on the back are boldly
patterned in white and brown in alternating bands, like the photo of the
immature Red-shouldered Hawk in the photo above. In contrast,
the immature Red-tailed Hawk has pale edges to feathers, with the rest of
the individual feathers being rather plain, without bands of white and
brown. The pale edges of feathers on the immature Red-tailed Hawk
form the typical “V” pattern on the back side (scapulars) of sitting bird,
unlike the Fir Island bird. </div><div class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br
class=""></div><div class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br
class=""></div><div class=""
style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br
class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br
class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div
class="">On Mar 12, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Steve Hampton <<a
href="mailto:stevechampton@GMAIL.COM"
class="">stevechampton@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr"
class=""><div class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large;color:#073763">Interesting photograph. I lean toward
Red-tailed Hawk based on:</div><div class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large;color:#073763"><ul class=""><li class="">yellow
iris </li><li class="">the size of the eye relative to the bill and
head </li><li class="">number of tail bars (at least 7)</li><li
class="">the tail bars are of mostly uniform width (on Red-sh the distal
bars seem to get thicker) </li></ul><div class=""><br
class=""></div></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div
dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 1:53 PM Jeff Gilligan
<<a href="mailto:jeffgilligan10@gmail.com"
class="">jeffgilligan10@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br
class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div
style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">I think we can eliminate the
yellow sere or lack of it, as being an important ID factor. For
example, see this immature Red-tailed Hawk has an obvious yellow sere:
<a
href="https://www.audubon.org/magazine/fall-2016/six-quick-questions-help-you-identify-red-tailed"
target="_blank"
class="">https://www.audubon.org/magazine/fall-2016/six-quick-questions-help-you-identify-red-tailed</a><div
class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A quick answer, without a leading
question, from a very good Santa Barbara birder was that it is an immature
Red-shouldered. He wasn’t committed to that as positive though.
He has Red-Shouldered Hawks that nest behind hs house.</div><div
class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Jeff Gilligan</div><div
class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br
class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On
Mar 12, 2022, at 9:24 AM, J. Acker <<a href="mailto:Owler@sounddsl.com"
target="_blank" class="">Owler@sounddsl.com</a>> wrote:</div><br
class=""><div class=""><div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
class=""><div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:windowtext;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal"
class="">I’m not so sure about imm Red-Shouldered. This bird appears
to be a buteo, and a chunky one. Red shoulders are more slender /
less bulky looking. Also the number and width of the tail bars is not
matching up with the photos I have viewed online of red-shouldered.
Additionally, the cere should be yellowish in a red-shouldered and
this photo has an all dark bill and cere.<u class=""></u><u
class=""></u></span></div><div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:windowtext;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal"
class="">But I am confused as to what this bird is also.<u class=""></u><u
class=""></u></span></div><div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:windowtext;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal"
class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div><div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class="">J.
Acker</span></div><div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><a href="mailto:Owler@sounddsl.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class=""><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"
class="">Owler@sounddsl.com</span></a><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u><u
class=""></u></span></div><div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class="">Bainbridge
Island, WA<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class="">Sent from<span
class=""> </span></span><a
href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class=""><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class="">Mail</span></a><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""><span
class=""> </span>for Windows<u class=""></u><u
class=""></u></span></div><div
style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:windowtext;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal"
class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><b
style="font-size:11pt" class="">From: </b><a
href="mailto:burtc_8@msn.com" style="font-size:11pt;color:blue"
target="_blank" class="">BURT
CUNNINGHAM</a></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br
class=""></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><br
class=""></div>-- <br class=""><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div
dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><font size="4"
color="#073763" class=""><span class=""></span>Steve Hampton<span
class=""></span></font></div><div class="">Port Townsend, WA (<span
style="font-family: verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"
class="">qatáy</span>)</div></div><br class=""><div class=""><font
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