[Tweeters] Interesting conversation with a Game Warden

Cindy Ashy tunicate89 at yahoo.com
Thu Nov 14 18:49:49 PST 2013


While I realize this is going to be an unpopular statement with some, I truly believe Discover Passes and anything akin to them are moving in the wrong direction... there is so much waste/fraud/bogus bureaucracy in government spending right now, this is the reason we no longer seem to have money for parks from public funds which is how I personally think they should be funded... i.e. hugely over-inflated contracts being handed out to family/friends/corrupt networks for example, favors for various political contributors, layers of red tape/paperwork/legal fees/etc that doesn't need to be there, etc, etc... If we could fix this, or even improve upon it, there would be plenty of public money for parks.

I personally believe there ought to be public spaces, beautiful places, ocean beaches, rivers, bays, estuaries, wetlands, forests, mountains, deserts, and other wild places where ANYONE can go to soak up something natural, refresh their soul, breath clean air, clear their mind, listen to native birdsong, etc, without being tapped on the shoulder and asked, well actually demanded by law or you have to leave, to pay a private fee (not taxes)... it's pubic property, not private property, but you are forced to pay a private fee usage anyway... I do not agree this is way to go... I think it is basic human right that we are losing fast... I would not want to live on this planet in a 100 years given where we are currently headed and I truly hope it changes somehow without us having to go through something devastatingly horrible to wake everyone up to realities of what is actually happening in our world currently held hostage by monetary greed.

Some people may not see the connection given the topic of this thread but Monsanto sits on the board of the Nature Conservancy (this one fact alone should be an enormous wake up call) and I-522 did not pass because corporations bought the election -- quite literally bought it. Meanwhile, just over the horizon we'll have GMO salmon swimming around in the ocean rubber-stamped by the corporate controlled FDA while birds continue to eat the wild rapeseed now largely contaminated with GMO genes from canola, not to mention the GMO corn being put into the environment for birds by WFW. These things are VERY connected to the fact there is supposedly not enough money in public coffers for parks because the underlying root problem is the exactly the same. The parks funding issue is just a symptom of a much larger problem that needs fixing. Can you cure a disease by curing a symptom? I personally do not think so... I think you cure the disease by rooting out the
underlying cause(s) and eliminating it.....

Sorry if I'm offending anyone but I really need to speak my peace on this... and yes, I think this definitely relates to birds and birding, although I understand some will not see it that way.

Cindy Ashy

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 11/14/13, Tom Talbott <tom.talbott at gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Tweeters] Interesting conversation with a Game Warden
To: "Hal Michael" <ucd880 at comcast.net>
Cc: "Tweeters" <tweeters at u.washington.edu>, "Walter Kuciej" <WALTERK74 at comcast.net>
Date: Thursday, November 14, 2013, 7:34 PM

There is no question that
the "consumptive" users are better targeted and
have more incentive to pay. It is all in one place (you go
to buy your tags, passes, licenses at Walmart) and in
totality they are avoiding being charged with poaching. That
is a bit more daunting than a parking ticket. Buying a duck
stamp is required for hunters. For anyone else, it is left
up to charity.


It is all built into the system for hunters.
 They aren't being magnanimous for paying these fees,
they are specifically targeted and for good
reason.
The misconception is that there are
"non-consumptive" users.  Everyone makes an
impact and the original post points that out.  But the
system doesn't recognize it. So, instead, we resort to
trying to guilt people into paying? That is not a good
strategy either.


The first step was to get people to start
thinking in terms of paying for use. Before the Discover
Pass, many places were free to use.  Convincing people that
the money is actually needed is hard given the past, but not
impossible. It's definitely not going to happen though
charity, though.


The system needs to adapt.
But for now, since the hunters are forced to pay
out more money, they pretty much feel like they rule the
roost and those "non-consumptives" are merely
tolerated at best.


Tom

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013
at 3:51 PM, Hal Michael <ucd880 at comcast.net>
wrote:


It will be
interesting to see what happens.  The Discover Pass, as i
understand it, has not generated anywhere near the revenue
needed to keep the Parks open and maintain them.


 
The trend in Government is for user fees.  State tax
money has been really cut back at Parks and WDFW. Without
the consumptive users and their fees and taxes thereo would
not be a WDFW, and probably not many F&W agencies in the
US.  Eliminate the consumptive users/uses and the burden
will fall to the general public.  Or, the non-consumptive
users can pay the freight. 


 
As popular as they are, the national parks are
underfunded.  I suspect that in a legislative vote to fund
schools, infrastructure, police/fire, jails, healthcare, or
natural resources that resources would miss the bus.




Hal Michael
Olympia WA
360-459-4005 (H)
360-791-7702 (C)


ucd880 at comcast.net



From: "Tom Talbott" <tom.talbott at gmail.com>
To: "Hal Michael" <ucd880 at comcast.net>


Cc: "Tweeters" <tweeters at u.washington.edu>,
"Walter Kuciej" <WALTERK74 at comcast.net>


Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:13:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Tweeters] Interesting conversation with
a Game Warden


Sounds like they are just perpetuating the
problem.  


I think times are changing, though, and old ideas need
to be rethought. Discover Pass is a start.  The key is that
it is centralized, easy to get, and well advertised.  I
remember having to hunt down all the different ways to buy
the different passes in the past or getting to a site and
finding that that pass had just expired.




I believe most people (at least I know am) are willing
to pay money if the process is up front, easy, and going for
what they care about.


Tom



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013
at 1:50 PM, Hal Michael <ucd880 at comcast.net>
wrote:




Conceptually, yes.  In practice, the non-consumptive
industry shot down proposals for taxes one their goods that
would be equivalent to the Dingall-Johnson, and Duck Stamp
programs.
 
The Discover Pass is essentially for State Parks. A
pittance goes to DNR and WDFW.  How many here used to
regularly buy the WDFW access pass?


Hal Michael
Olympia WA
360-459-4005 (H)
360-791-7702 (C)
ucd880 at comcast.net





From: "Tom Talbott" <tom.talbott at gmail.com>
To: "Walter Kuciej" <WALTERK74 at comcast.net>


Cc: "Tweeters" <tweeters at u.washington.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:33:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Tweeters] Interesting conversation with
a Game Warden




"I know many birders have
somewhat negative opinions of hunters, but if it weren't
for them, we'd have a lot fewer places to
go. "


I think that part of the problem
is that the main way to support habitat is to support
hunting.  Virtually all preservation exists to make sure
there will be enough birds to shoot in the
future.




Hopefully, this will change as
more people learn that you can be in nature without killing
things.  If there were actual passes and stamps targeting
birding and targeting habitat specifically for birds just
because they are birds, I believe you would have more people
contributing.  When the state sees birders and
photographers as an asset and isn't predominately geared
towards hunting, then they will see more uptake in terms of
revenue from them.  It will be a balance, but for now the
scale seems rather tipped.




I think the Discover Pass is
actually the first step in this direction.  I know people
that don't like it, but I find it to be much better than
the old system.




Tom (renewed Discover Pass just
came in the mail)



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013
at 1:00 PM, Walter Kuciej <WALTERK74 at comcast.net>
wrote:

Yesterday we were leaving
Eide Rd after dark, and stopped to talk with the friendly
F+W guy. Learned a few things:


Pheasant hunters have to wear orange; duck hunters
don't.
The area is stocked 3X weekly with 40-60 birds.
The end of legal shooting time is adjusted periodically
based on the length of the day, not necessarily
"sunset", which is too subjective.


Any changes to the Eide Rd. site will take years. Ducks
Unlimited is the driving force here, not the Audubon society
or any birding group.
 He was surprised at how many $100 citations he gives to
birders who did not get a Discovery Pass, but feel entitled
to use the Wildlife areas anyway.


He was also amazed at how many "listers" come long
distances to see a rare bird, and not only don't get a
pass, but trespass on private property as if they have some
right to do so, not being hunters.This also happens with
more casual birders. We saw it on Thomle Rd. when the Snowy
Owls were there last winter. People just walking across the
field who said it was "public land", or maybe too
cheap to buy the $10 permit from the farmer "What
farmer?" Not everyone reads tweeters.


This has resulted in areas being closed to the public by
normally friendly landowners who would probably give
permission if asked. He mentioned once having to close a
public area that was  being overrun by birders. As always,
a small group can give a bad name to those who play by the
rules.


If a Discover Pass ($30, think of it as a "birding
license") and a Federal Duck Stamp ($15, which goes to
buy land for refuges) seem excessive, ask yourself how much
you spend on optics, apps, gas etc.
I know many birders have somewhat negative opinions of
hunters, but if it weren't for them, we'd have a lot
fewer places to go.
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